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Dumpster Diving for Starting Pitching

New delivery.

Leon Halip - Getty Images

New delivery.

One of the more painful exercises I frequently force myself to do is to look back at the prior year draft and scan the lower rounds to see where the gems were mined. Invariably, there are a number of starting pitchers that leap off the screen resulting in my palm smacking my forehead in bewilderment as to how I missed out.

But every year, great pitching performances can be found in late rounds. Your ability to sniff them out will allow you to spend more of your early picks on the boys with the big bats, which are all too difficult to find in late rounds.

To that end, allow me to present the case for three starting pitchers that I think are going far later than their worth to your fantasy squad - in descending order of preference: Shaun Marcum, Ryan Dempster, and A.J. Burnett.

Yes, I said A.J. Burnett.

Star-divide

Shaun Marucm

Alright, this isn't really dumpster diving, but Marcum was being drafted in the 8th round on average headed into 2011 and after producing just about the same quality stats as in 2010, he's now being drafted on average in the 13th. I find that odd. But heck, maybe it's the dawn of the new Shawn Marcum market inefficiency, I don't know -- but I'll take him.

Marcum comes with some injury risk (but hell, so does this kid) but a 3.54 ERA (3.73 FIP), 1.16 WHIP with a strikeout rate over 19% in the 13th inning should be something you're interested in. What's more, for over his first 16 starts with his new squad, Marcum put up a 2.95 ERA with a swinging strike rate over 12%, inducing a 64% ground ball rate with his great change-up. He sputtered down the stretch with an ERA over 5.00 in September and a lot of people still remember how bad he looked in the playoffs. But his xFIP in September was still a respectable 3.86 -- it's just that his results were in part due to a brutal 65% strand rate and unusually high BABIP and HR/FB rate (14%).

You could be drafting Marcum as your #5 starter and he very easily could perform like a #3 in a very good rotation. Don't sleep on him on draft day.

Ryan Dempster

Yes, Ryan Dempster blew up in 2011 for a 4.80 ERA, 1.45 WHIP, and he won just 10 games. But consider Dempster's FIP and xFIP over the last four years:

Year ERA FIP xFIP
2008 2.96 3.41 3.69
2009 3.65 3.87 3.76
2010 3.85 3.99 3.74
2011 4.8 3.91 3.7

Dempster has actually been remarkably consistent over the last four years and if you can get past the ugliness of that 4.80, you've got a nice candidate to pluck out of one of the last rounds of the draft that just might wind up being a pretty significant contributor to your squad. His strikeout rate over the last four years: 21.9%, 20.4%, 22.7%, and 21.7%. If he can repeat in the low 20's, assuming Dempster can give you 200 innings pitched, he could net 190 K's. What's more, most projection systems see him with an ERA below 4 and a WHIP that should return back into the low 1.3 range.

There was no appreciable change in his velocity, but his slider simply wasn't as effective as it was in the past. His slider has pretty consistently been a couple runs above average per 100 pitches, but in 2011, it was a tick below average, which impacted his overall swinging strike rate and elevated his contact rate. One concern might be that his fastball velocity started to drop pretty significantly into August and September, but remember that Dempster really doesn't rely all that heavily on his straight burner -- he throws almost 30% two-seamers now, to go along with 30% sliders and double-digit change-ups.

Dempster was being drafted at about 140 in 2011, which I actually thought was pretty late given his profile, and now after one stinker over the last four years, he's pretty much free with an ADP over 300. He's an old dog, but there's reward with this risk, even if wins might be tough to come by in Chicago this season. I think he's an excellent late round flier.

A.J. Burnett

I heard a pretty scathing attack on a national media outlet regarding A.J. Burnett and his inability to be effective as a starting pitcher. Citing things like wins and ERA, this radio personality levied some pretty harsh terms to describe Burnett and with a ferocity that made it seem like he just had a fresh pot. I had to laugh of course, because A.J. Burnett was far more than what his win totals and ERA indicate. And frankly, if he is ultimately traded to the Pittsburgh Pirates, he might be a better pitcher because of it.

Without even drilling down very far, there's a lot to like about Burnett. He had an 8.18 K/9 rate and an overall 20.7% K rate.That K rate bests Dan Haren, Matt Cain, Jordan Zimmermann, among others. A.J. Burnett can still give you 185 K's if he can stay on the field for 200 innings, and if he goes to the National League, it will only serve to elevate his predicted strikeouts.

Yes, he had a 5.15 ERA, but his xFIP was 3.86 in large part because of a ridiculously elevated home run rate at 17.6% HR/FB whereas his career rate is right about 11%. Yankee Stadium did him few favors, being one of the very friendliest places on earth to hit home runs for left handed batters and it's worth noting that roughly 33% of the home runs Burnett allowed were classified as "just enough" or "lucky" by ESPN's Hit Tracker.

Burnett's not going to carry your team ERA and he's likely to have a WHIP that will likely give you indigestion -- but if you're dying for strikeouts and you're in one of the final rounds of your draft, a flyer on Burnett isn't a terrible idea. His HR rates will regress, and should he maintain a swinging strike rate at his career norm of about 10%, he's going to have success in striking batters out once again. With an ADP of 386 (at mock draft central) you might even be able to grab him off the waiver wire early in the season.

0 recs  |  20 comments

Comments

Burnett

Just cant pitch from the stretch, his ERA last year with men on base is a ridiculous 9 plus. Which is anywheres between 2 runs higher than league average.

MISP

He had a 9.22 K/9 and 3.66 xFIP with men in scoring position in 2011, both three year highs.

All he can give you

is K’s. His other stats will kill your team. His quality start % is awful for the last 2 years. If you watch him pitch, he just completely implodes when faced with any adversity. He isn’t in the dumpster……he’s already reached the landfill. Leave him there.

For fantasy baseball purposes

I encourage you to move away from quality starts and ERA in an effort to try and predict who will perform well the following year. Maybe even implore.

I’m certainly not saying AJ Burnett will carry your team — but I’m absolutely saying he’s better than his draft slot, and he might even be usable. He could be a nice spot starter when you’re hunting for wins and he’s up against a weak opponent. If it turns out he’s just mailing it in, get rid of him – he didn’t cost you a thing.

Dempster

I think that Dempster is actually overranked. Yahoo currently has him ranked above Fister, Hellickson, Holland, Wandy, Chacin, Lilly, Jurrjens and Ogando.
I get that he’s ownable and had more K’s than everyone that I just listed, but I’m not paying Yahoo’s price. I know that 140 seems late, but there were probably 80 pitchers that were better than him last year, and probably about 60 that could/should sustain being better this year.

Would agree

I would take several of those guys before Dempster – but I probably like him more than than a few of those guys. Especially Fister.

Why do most people dislike Fister?

He was 51st overall last year in 5×5 (yahoo) despite only 11 wins, 8 of which came after he was traded. That could translate to the 14-16 range with a full season in Detroit. He doesn’t strike out a ton of guys, but his K Rate also improved dramatically with Detroit. Could be luck, but could also be coaching or even pitch choice/catcher? He also doesn’t walk anyone.
I just know he carried me down the stretch last year and figured he’d be ranked as a top 80-100 player. What am I missing?
His BABIP was certainly lower in last year than it was in ‘10, but not lower than it was in ’09.
I don’t expect him to repeat 51st overall, but Dempster, really?

it's not that I dislike Fister

it’s just that expecting him to perform at, or anywhere near, the level that he demonstrated last year is just asking for an ulcer.

I think you really need to trust the ERA predictors with Fister. SIERA had him at 3.67. xFIP had him at 3.61. It’s worth noting that in over 400 minor league innings, he had a 4.38 ERA, so he just fundamentally blew away anybody’s notion of his true talent level in 2011. He credits his conditioning, which – hey, super – he’s got a killer core. But all signs point to regression (BAA, HR/FB, BABIP).

I will say that Fister was throwing much harder as the year went on though – and it’ll be real curious to see if he comes out slinging 93 mph fastballs instead of 88, where he normally sat.

But my bet is you see something a lot more like the 2010 version of Doug Fister (which was even surprising) – around a 4.00 ERA, a 1.30 WHIP and a K/9 rate around 5, maybe a tick higher just to be friendly. He certainly could win a good number of games though with the offense the Tigers have.

If you want to make the Dempster comparison, my bet is he has the same ERA and WHIP as Fister, but strikes out closer to 8 per 9. Say there’s a 3 win difference in “actual” baseball wins or so… and I take Dempster (because wins are fickle anyway) and I’d rather have the 50 extra strikeouts.

Another red flag is that Fister is an extreme groundball pitcher and his infield doesn't project to do him any favors this year.
And he pitched against the equivalent of A ball lineups after the move to Detroit...
yeah he threw against two clubs

with a winning record after the trade. 4 starts vs. Cleveland, 2 vs. KC, 1 MIN, 1 BAL. To his credit, he did beat Texas and Tampa.

This is true.

Good call out dudedudedude.
He did pitch pretty well in 2 of his 3 playoff starts as well though.

Upside?

But when drafting late, we should be looking for upside right? We just saw Fister’s upside. He was pitching better in the 2nd half of last year than Dempster ever has.

I’m years away from becoming an expert in the advanced metrics of pitching, which is why I’m here asking. An xFIP of 3.61 is actually pretty good though right? If I’m looking at fangraphs correctly, that was 30th best last year, somehow ahead of the likes of Weaver, Lester, Romero and Cain. He was 32nd in SIERA and actually 12th in FIP.

Yes

an xFIP of 3.61 is pretty good. xFIP is a regressed version of FIP, bringing a pitchers HR/FB rate up or down to a league average rate (of roughly 10%). A great FIP primer is here: http://www.fangraphs.com/library/index.php/pitching/fip/

The ERA predictors (FIP, SIERA, tERA) are all more accurate at predicting future performance than just using the prior year ERA, and some by a lot. You use them as much as you are comfortable, and try to get as granular with the other available data as you like to try and make reasonable assumptions about true talent.

Fister is almost assuredly going to be overvalued on draft day due to his ridiculous 2011 campaign. I wouldn’t mind tucking him away as a 6th starter to see if he can catch lightning in a bottle again, but he’s probably going to get drafted as someone’s #3 or #4 starter and they’re probably going to have a disappointing team because of it.

And I’ll eat my hat, sell my first born, kick a puppy — if Doug Fister ever exceeds 5.6 WAR again for the rest of his career (yes, yes, I know – WAR isn’t fantasy relevant…just making a point).

Thanks for the insight and conversation.

He probably will be overvalued on some people’s boards. But I’d say he’s certainly not overvalued on any rankings which I’ve seen to date. I’ve been looking to have this conversation with someone since I saw some rankings, to put my skewed (thanks for last year Fister) view in to perspective.
I’ll probably still like him more than most experts, but I wasn’t planning on reaching for him and paying for one year’s performance anyway.
I won’t sell my first born on this, but I’ll stick with my gut that he’ll outperform Dempster this year. Thanks again.

140

was headed into 2011. His ADP over at MDC is 311 now. Yahoo appears to have him at 180, which I think is fair, although there are several ranked after him that are “rosterable”

I'm doing my "dumpster diving" in Atlanta

Based on current ADP I have a feeling I’m going to end up with a lot of stock in Atl SP’s this year. In my opinion every member of their rotation is going at least 2 rounds after they should.

Beachy at 121 (Yahoo)

is a pretty interesting pick. Tommy Hansen claims to have altered his delivery to help alleviate stress on his shoulder – may put more stock in his spring stats, unfortunately – but at 104, if you believe he’s healthy, he’s also a bargain. Not a big fan of Jurrjens, even at 200.

Teheran & Hudson could be good value in end rounds as well.

People tend to excessively devalue players who will start the year on the dl. Especially in head-to-head leagues where April holds minimal significance in the grand scheme.

what a clown

Good riddance AJ is an arrogant @#$%. His wife is a mean, controlling, jealous person and a drunk. She has been ever since AJ got caught cheating on her when he was in toronto. She is not affraid to fly when it suits her and it’s not like her @#$% flies comercial anyway He is washed up and does not have the ability to throw the ball by anyone anymore he can barely hit 92 mph and throws the ball over the heart of the plate when he’s not giving up walks. He has never had the intelligence or work ethic to become a good pitcher. He infact is a spoiled brat with an attitude problem. He hasn’t done crap for his home state because his wife doesn’t like his family or friends. He doesn’t care about winning or he would have taken his Balls out of his wifes purse and been a man and gone to Anaheim and played with Pujols and fellow Arkansan Tori Hunter and could have been the fifth starter with no pressure on a team full of great pitchers and enough offense to overcome his 6.00 era per game. I think he was scared to go to Anaheim because he would have been exposed especially pitching along side Weaver, Wilson, and Santana as the third rate pitcher he is, Soscia would not put up with his crap and his lack of performance would have been a joke just as it was in NY. Now he can go to the Pirates and when he doesn’t win games he can say it’s because the pirates suck so he can try to convince himself that he doesn’t suck but in fact he does and he knows it

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